Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. This whole conversation for over 2+ years is hilarious. Give me a break!! Every round has its purpose. You might be able to talk to the first guy. The USMC changed to 9mm since female Marines had trouble with recoil and were not qualifying at same rate as males. It got up and walked about 25 yards before falling. I seen it first hand as well. But the modern bullets are getting better all the time! A pistol just sucks in that situation. Small grip,,Low recoil,,, easy conceability One size does Not fit all. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. You could smell the gunpowder. Request a quote for the most accurate & reliable non-lethal training, A shootout that killed multiple FBI agents underscores the need for cops to use bullets that will neutralize an adversary as quickly as possible. After decades of witnessing the 45 vs 9 mm battle. I know a LEO that works in Mendocino County CA. Fire Rate: 850 rounds/minute. They are both capable of inflicting mortal wounds far beyond practical range. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. But its definitely not easy to carry concealed (especially in hot weather) and Im big guy. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. (As my Sr. DI liked to say Two in the chest, and one in the head, then youre pretty damned sure that the bastard is dead.. With practice almost anything is possible. Just carry what YOU feel most comfortable with and shoot the best with as shot placement is most important. Firing Modes: Semi-auto. Penetration of 7" pine boards for various pistol calibres: Illustrative penetration capabilities of a 30-06 full -jacketed rifle bullet at a velocity of 2700 ft/s and at a range of 200 yd: 1" of armour plate 7" of gravel 4.5" of brick 4" of concrete 32" of oak wood 6.5" of dry sand 7" of moist sand 26" of loam 24" of clay 19" of loose earth 60" of 1" pine boards, Continue reading here: General wound ballistic concepts, FREE Military Tough 6-in-1 Tactical Survival Knife, Free 2nd Amendment Gun Rights Silver Coin, Green Beret Master Sergeant Home Security Checklist, Winning Plays Texted To Your Phone That Comes Directly From An Elite Team Of Sharps, Ballistics Theory Straight Line Muzzle To Target, Internal External and Terminal Ballistics, High Standard Pistols - Firearms identification, Drop In Auto Sear - AR15 to M16 Conversion. When dealing with a highly motivated target, milliseconds matter. Obama wants us dead. First off when you call a magazine a CLIP, everything you say is null and void as far as Im concerned. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. George. That is closet weights I can readily come up with from factory offerings. While, I understand that budgetary issues are a factor they should not come before the safety of the officer pr soldier. That changed for me Dec of 2017. Most people shot with long gun rounds they tend to be doa . Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered. Soldiers and police officers are far more likely to engage multiple targets in extended shootouts with adversaries, and therefore have a much greater need for a high capacity pistol than I will in a self-defense scenario. I was in the military and was law enforcement. For the spray and pray that they teach nowadays the high cap 9mm is good. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. At 70, I choose to go small & straight! I own 9mm, .40 and .45. What type of bullet is being fired? Spend the little extra money and get the 5.56 chambered AR so you can safely shoot the higher pressure and accurate 5.56 ammunition and leave the .223 in the store. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. #firearmtraining. The kidneys separate this material from the blood. Even minor and common factors can significantly impact the wounding ability of a round, including damage to a hollow point through contact with any intervening material, from glass to bone. There have been several attempts by ballistics engineers to increase the wounding ability of a round. These are rounds designed to expand upon impact with a soft target. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. If Agent Doves bullet had entered Platts heart, he would have perished quickly, before launching his life-ending assault. Beats. Developed in the 1950s, this round combines high velocity with large bullet size. You have either been there, done that or you are a very common sense person. 9mm doesnt work so well one at a time from a pistol, but we didnt have any expectation that it would. I have had to fire both and knowing that the 9 mm is a lighter piece of lead compared to the 45 ACP it is all about placement then. This was an interesting discussion. I carry 9mm JHP for EDC and also use JHP in the .40 High Point. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. We cannot recreate these or even reliably use the data. Not so with rifles with muzzle velocities of 2800-4000 fps, depending on the caliber. I never had much faith in a 9mm til that incident. Steel BB (0.170" ball bearing) at 200 ft/s will make a hole, but will not penetrate 4" plate glass. He also competes in USPSA and 3-gun competitions including numerous top-10 finishes at major matches and championships. Good job Chris and the rest of you but remember when you give gun advise target shooting and self defense shooting are two different scenarios and one can get you deadyou cant shoot my gun as good as me but you can shoot your gun because its the best one for you. Look for a box or option labeled Home Page (Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari) or On Startup (Chrome). But Im my opinion, they are tools! A century? Prefer a 9 mm. Though the patient survived and only had a small wound, he suffered extensive contusions throughout his lungs. Matthew McConaughey tells the story of those killed in Uvalde in emotional plea for action on guns. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62. can weigh in at 125 grains. I cant compare to 9mm but I still want to carry 45acp. You need to be a little more specific. .45 caliber merely refers to the diameter of the bullet. There are a large variety of cartridges that fire b But I understand the 9 isnt on level with the 45 and know unless a headshot presents itself I will have to dump my mag 7+1 into whoever makes me engage them for a favorable outcome. 9mm beats .45acp. Much of the difference is Bowman, I have read how the 124gr 9mm ammo used by NATO does not do its intended job. The best I heard about itcirca Desert Shieldwas that at least the guns werent beaten completely to death, badly maintained by armorers who were phoning it in, and handed out off the rack with worn-out springs and safety levers falling out, like the M1911s had been ever since after Korea. and I guess $$.. Were they not the agency who got thier asses handed to them that created this debate in the first place? Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. His analysis is paramount to someone telling me the 7mm Rem Mag will outperform the 8mm Rem Mag. Both forget one major factor. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Do your thing, your responsible for your actions! Their explanation (other than increasing ammo capacity): bullet technology has come a long way since 1986. The lack of penetration, compared to a 9mm ,from a 45 can be eliminated by using a long barrel , 5+, and +P rounds. I'd like to see the science on that one. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. Its unlikely Id ever have to shoot at anything other than paper targets. Riley, love your artical. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. Train! I have got to wonder about this Neil Clapperton quoted above. Enter https://www.police1.com/ and click OK. We are currently looking for shooting survivors to discuss their experience and their recovery. Semiautomatic rifles dont shoot the largest bullets on the market. who proved the .45-caliber round has SO MUCH more knockdown power than the 9mm that it only requires one shot to incapacitate a threat? I have never shot a people. 9mm will not drop a target unless you hit the CNS.a buddy of mine took a 9mm straight through the head through his eyeball from about 20 yards away. WebWhen youre in the midst of dealing with an attack, the reduction in blood flow to your hands (along with the chemical changes in your body) will likely result in an increase in your pain threshold. I can make a kill shot with just under 1 sec at 60 meters with my .45. If you kill one, you take one out of battle. Four ribs had essentially turned to dust. 0.38" Special P, 158 gr non-expanding bullet will, unless it strikes a bone, pass straight through a human body. Just saying. Episode 424 is the perfect companion to this post because we discuss caliber and it's relation to hit factor! Ive come to a conclusion that many people lean towards the 9 mm including the military because its easier to control and thus are more accurate, especially for a teenager fresh out of high school. Id rather be hit by a small rock than a big one. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. The .45 is a bit harder to conceal so people may freak out. But its easy tell which one of you are the idiots, and those of us that actually know are trying to skate uphill teaching those that dont. Better get that imagination under control, tough guy! A .50 Desert Eagle is no good if you cannot carry it and get it out and shoot it accurately and fairly quickly, no matter what the knock-down power if you were able to hit anything with it. Because of the relatively slim chance of obtaining more than a single torso hit, the ammunition used must maximize the likelihood of immediate incapacitation. All animals died pretty much on location. True enough, but the dead enemy will not lie there or sit-up and shoot or pull the pin on a grenade on you as the wounded enemy might. Tearing and rupturing is common in tissue surrounding the wound channel. In 1985, the US military replaced the .45 ACP with the 9mm round for its standard sidearm. For almost 17 years that I carred a badge I carried a S&W 357 on a K frame. It is the concept that will underlie this entire article. Cant get into why I know this but but Im retired from the Government. 2 from 15 ft, 2 from 25 ft, jumping to 2 from 50 ft. And 2 from 100ft. WebChronic kidney disease is a disease characterized by progressive damage and loss of function in the kidneys. Ben, enlightened folk like you (and myself) understand that politics is ALWAYS at play on some level!! .22lr is an assassins round yet we all have fun plinking around with it. I like it better than the small pistols and can conceal the 1911 easily. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. Lethality by Caliber: Whats the Best Handgun Caliber For You? So you better have the biggest heaviest bullet going down range that you can possibly get. So many guns so little time! LE, south LA and Watts for 8 1/2 out of 15 years. As someone just coming in your home or coming at you out of the blue. WebSTI Tactical. So, yes, they are looking at it with the assumption that modern 9mm JHP bullets perform very similarly to .40s&w and .45acp, and thus will move toward 9mm loadings for sidearms. That and other factors. Weband 45 expands slightly more than 9 mm This also depends on specific round construction. They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. Why bullet size matters in police shootings | PoliceOne.com R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. This may be called Tools or use an icon like the cog. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. But whats the long term average? Rhee explained that the more massive the projectile, the more severe the wound. Oh yeahMale mental dropped like a 50 pound bag of sand. Which is better? The FBI claims a bullet has no hydrostatic shock capabilities until at least 2200-2400 fps. I prefer 45 revolvers. The pistol is not their primary weapon. Desert Eagle Ammo Type: .45 ACP. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. I just know the most important thing is to shoot a lot, and carry the gun you are most comfortable shooting. and departments. However, at 15 feet in your living room that is a concern regardless of what you are using unless you have a 22 or a 380. Possible off hand 200. With those factors in mind, Id prefer one of the calibers most likely to immediately incapacitate and prevent return fire. Its only popular because of the name brand, not the true performance against other guns. Officer needs help!! The point here is this: it is okay that the Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command has decided to issue only Glock 19's. The 45 ACP is my choice of a Heavy Hitter. Theres also the reaction of a surprise. American troops in the Philippines discovered this important distinction in the late 19th century. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. Cool story for real. If I think it can get that bad where Im going. With a bone thats been shot with a standard-issue caliber handgun, youll see a break, a hole in the bone, and maybe some displacement. Because size is king? Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. In any event, I used that data when shopping for a lighter and more easily concealed EDC than my .357 magnum revolver and hi-cap .45 ACP. Patricks treatise outlines the following factors to consider regarding handgun bullets: Accordingly, the best handgun rounds will reliably cause a permanent cavity that will penetrate the soft tissue of an adversary between 12 and 18 inches. One last thing, I love the MC but for a military branch that has prided itself on marksmanship, they went along all too easily to 5.56/.223 and away from a real rifle (M-14). 12 shots fired. I am not going to address the whole military, spec-ops, battlefield blah blah. Its too small. Of these, the hollow point round is the most common and effective. Ammunition can really change performance. 10 Best ways to Make Money on Social Media and not waste time. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. S&W was required to announce it due to SEC requirements as they are one of the only publicly-owner companies. well lets fac the facts ere during th banna war the marines choose the 45 acp end of story. spot on ! Psychological factors play a much greater role. You know, Indians killed each other, white settlers, and hunted with a bow &. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. Any round can accomplish that, even the much-maligned .22. The idea that a bullet has the power to knock an adversary to the ground is a Hollywood myth. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Yes, I will agree that air resistance is constantly at work against a bullet, thereby slowing it down as it travels toward its intended target. I have also read that the 124gr NATO round is a +P. I recently bought a Sig P227 Tacops. For me the argument is how the pistol or revolver feels in my hand and how accurately can shoot it. But in the Kaos of combat (especially at dark:30) your intended target isnt usually going to present itself and just stand there for your perfect shot placement. 9mm, I carry 147 grain Hp. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. Hi, I have both. This was not a good CC carry eather so for a while I did not carry CC. We have much better tools now. I am a Force Recon Marine with 10 years of advanced military training and have served 7 separate combat tours. The National Rifle Association is one of the most powerful special interest groups in America. Nobody I know whos had to use issue 9mm M882 Ball is terribly impressed with it, either for the way it penetrated light cover like auto bodiesadmittedly, if you are shooting at someone protected by an automobile chassis, you should have brought a rifle, if not a grenade launcher with HEAT rounds or something belt-fed with the black-tip ammo that have the depleted uranium coresor for the way bad people reacted to being shot with it, which was usually not at all for quite some time barring a hit to the brain or spinal cord, or multiple hits, as in the whole magazine and maybe another. This is what can incapacitate a target, even with a poorly placed torso shot. Gimme a break! Ive hunted with both 9 and 45. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! Case in point, a 1600lb bull mooseshot 3 times at 50 yards with a .338 magnum. I spent FAR more money letting her out every pistol they had for rent than I did purchasing her final choice. And anyways I own a Kimber Colt 45 1911 with a muzzle breaker on it steel slide aluminum from and honey comb grips, I also own for my conceal Walther Q4 with tactical barrel. As a medical provider who fractured his back, making a house call in Alaska-dealing with chronic pain issues-I have talk to our local Police Captain. To each his own. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. This, as with any other type of penetration test, is plagued with inaccuracies. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. The argument about effectiveness, capacity, reliability, stopping power, etc has been going on as long as I remember, ad nauseum. I still carry a Ruger P-97 in 45 ACP caliber. Ive shot so many different weapons, started at the age of 11, hunted most of my life. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. That the .45ACP slows down so much that its penetration is less effective than a 9mm? I carry a s&w .357 airweight not fun to shoot due to recoil and sound. In fact, thats what civil liberty defense ammo is all about. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. Two shots were within an inch of his heart. Do Not Sell My Personal Information. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. Will that hollow point still have the same effect? Plenty of gang shootings. Unfortunately, there is no valid, scientific method of analyzing actual shooting incidents. Tissue inside the human body is remarkably elastic, even vital organs such as the lungs, bowels or circulatory system. I have a medical issue that makes it easier for me to carry a double action in a very small package. Your story reinforced thisas civilian in counters are closer that usual police work. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. The earlier FBI testing left no doubt that tissue displacement was greater with the larger rounds. Look at the Walter Scott shooting. Not aim shoot. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Heck a well placed .22 in the head can get the job done. Train, train train and when your done. WebYes, definitely. I hadnt even gotten halfway through the article before coming to the same conclusion. Was the 357 mag. He didnt get more than three feet from the bathroom. He watched MARSOC during a multi-national special forces competition, MARSOC couldnt compete with the low capacity 1911. I have both, like them all, and carry them because rifles are hard to conceal! We had competant and caring armorers and shooting instructors ( These guys gave a fuck and went out of their way for you ). Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! ago Haha. All rights reserved. The bullet has far less weight and cross section than a .45 acp? Back then we all agreed the larger rounds had better stopping power. Damage: 23. I have the perfect picture for this: Those pins stayed in place for 18 months while the bone knit. It is a poor idea to keep your finger inside the Your shot placement will be perfect. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. 158 gr 0.38" Special P and 0.357" Magnum semi-jacketed bullets will penetrate both sides of a human skull. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. Its disturbing to me that we give up performance for comfort. The door has been opened and shut for good on John M. Browning's classic 1911 design. According to the song the battle for New Orleans, canonbalks were fired from alligator mouths which showed resourcefulness. In his 1989 treatise, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Supervisory Special Agent Urey Patrick explained that the goal of an officer in a life-threatening shooting incident is to incapacitate the adversary as quickly as possible. Scalise, a Republican from Louisiana whose condition has been upgraded to serious, suffered broken bones, ruptured blood vessels, and shredded internal organs. The last time such a broad survey of gun ownership in America was done, long arms ruled the day and Americans were largely interested in weapons for hunting and other sporting uses. So logically the 45 is more effective at stopping Humans, than the 9mm, data from lethal census. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please, Gunman Used Heavily Restricted Assault Weapon in California UPS Shooting. If Im in my own home in a self-defense scenario, at any distance, Im armed with a 12 gauge, and the whole pistol capacity and power debate is moot. If a projectile has features that would cause it to expand upon impact, U.S. Army engineers Donald Carlucci and Sidney Jacobson explained in the textbook, Ballistics: Theory and Design of Guns and Ammunition. I am old school. You can read all the FBI reports and all the ballistic gel crap you want. and love a SA trigger. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. A tool yes but not a valid substitute. It has never failed me and conceals extremely well. A pellet traveling at 450 fps (feet per second) can cause serious injury or death to a human depending on the type of pellet and the location of the impact. Any weapon is only as good as its owner, making the person behind the trigger the single greatest factor in how much stopping power a gun ultimately yields. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. WebIn a perforating wound, the bullet creates an exit wound as it escapes the body. With this in mind, we will now explore handgun wounding factors. The FBI Training Division reported in May 2014 that officers, on average, strike an adversary with only 20 percent to 30 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident. How many decades are we going to have this debate? Witnessed it first hand. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. Missing it not an option. Do Not Sell My Personal Information, If you need further help setting your homepage, check your browsers Help menu, Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness,, Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer,, FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection, supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. WebActually, three different types of pressure change appear: (1) shock wave pressures or sharp, high pressure pulses, formed when the missile hits the body surface; (2) very high pressure regions immediately in front and to each side of the moving missile; (3) relatively slow, low pressure changes connected with the behavior of the large explosive Through and through shots were the issue and the 9 just bounced of bones and exited. Still, no one should select a caliber based on the assumption that it will expand sufficiently to incapacitate an assailant. You may be knocked down and have to squeeze off a once and last shot to save you life. and have shot that enough also to hit well with it. and manufacturers. Sad. When someone has a weapon to defend themselves the adrenaline factor comes in play on both sides but the one with the tracing and experience should come out ok and most of the time the neighborhood thug doesnt have the training etc. Fired expert m14. What I have found, is its a matter of preference. Q-do you think your mind will change about +P in a 45 cal? 0.22" Lead air gun pellet requires a minimum of 250 ft/s velocity to penetrate fresh human skin. Mainly because it is polymer from and not as well build and equipped as the Walther Q4. Good article and very good to great comments. Officially last year it was announced that DoD intends to move to hollowpoint ammunition with this new MHS gun (whichever one ends up winning the contract). Wounding one enemy combatant to take three out of the fight (or at least two) was a good argument when we were facing civilized enemies such as the Germans in WW II. Patrick points out that there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support voluntary, life-threatening actions against an officer for 10 to 15 seconds after the heart has been destroyed. High-velocity I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Just imagine what it might have been like had you had to perform a reload in that situation? But are we supposed to believe the difference in air resistance between a 9mm and a .45ACP is that great? Give SOCOM GLocks which shoot 9mm (Glocks are great guns and I dont have a problem with the 9mm, great cartridge especially with all the advancements over the last 30 years) as I was saying problem solved. Guns dont kill people. Why do I say that? According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Now, I read the officers story. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. They have to show the bean counters proof for the money to fund the switch of caliber. Mine is easily concealable, accurate and has never failed to function. Web9mm vs 45 ACP, WE END THE DEBATE. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. That was with 6 shot revolvers or 17+1 round Glock 17s. Weve known this for, what, eighty years now? If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. Because its difficult to pack enough explosive powder into a cartridge thats supposed to fit within the shooters pistol grip, handgun designers typically try to increase firepower by sticking a bigger piece of metal on the end of a round. The FBI has made a pragmatic decision that the 147 grain 9mm bullet is the best bullet for its agents because it allows for more rounds in the handgun. Glocks are cheap and reliable. More damage with one shot. Do give the Walther PPS serious consideration. What i find interesting is that so many people have so much to say and they have never been in actual shoot out. I have shot many different calibers. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. After reading your article, I had to 1.) Practice, practice, practice. Because you are making a decision based on the fact that something (9mm) didnt work. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. Now lets talk about wound cavities caused by different caliber handgun rounds. What you provide is false true and true. Now marine I hope your watching now instead of using glock 19 in a 9mm counterpart here is a better suggestion why dont you use a glock 21 4th gene to insure ur fellow colleges a better a faster on the spot accuracy with zero recoil it will enable them to be more successful in hitting targets. However, the round stopped just short of entering Platts heart/aorta, only penetrating his torso about six or seven inches. Just my thoughts and observations over the years.
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