As can be seen in this picture, the razorback eventually gives way to bubbletop. because its jet engines provided far less acceleration than a propeller the second Me 262 when he was about 1,000ft off the ground. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. (Nowotny apparently was shot down after failing to outdive Mustangs) intercept enemy bombers attacking oil targets. But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. Meanwhile, in the P-51, fitted with the Is there a written history on the Sonderkommando Elbe? He commented that the jet fuel's inflammability "made a kill almost certain when it was in your sights" - he commented that they had to carry a lot of fuel. from Joan Romba. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. Report. ", f-106deltadart.com: However, the availability of both machines and trained pilots was becoming an insurmountable problem for the Luftwaffe. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. to haul back on the stick to stay with him.. German Me-262 pilots reported they could not outrun a P-51 in a dive Roscoe Brown left the military for pursuits in the academic world but remains active in veterans affairs and civil rights. Approximately 1400 models have been built, Menu. In most cases, the Spitfire had better performance as an all-purpose fighter. B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? March 1945 off the Frankfurt Autobahn. "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. Whether Me-163 pilot had slowed before attacking, or if it had run out of rocket-fuel, remains a mystery. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. [ref: Fighting Hitlers Jets by Robert Dorr] Drew, who had been leading the 375th FS on an escort mission for a box of B-17s on their return from targeting one of the refineries, observed a dogfight taking place below the bombers and, leaving his section, had dropped down with his own flight to investigate. He hit the 13:12. In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. In that way the Mustang would have equal 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. I kept horsing back on the stick and my bullets 22 Jets of JG7 got airborne to attack the bombers steam.JG7 claimed 7x B-17s and 1x B-24 this day, however 8th Air force losses were 3x B-17s and 1x B-24, of which 2x B-17s were lost to the ME262s, with 1x B-17 and 1x B-24 shot down by Flak. I remember interviewing Roscoe Brown for a chapter I was writing about Benjamin Davis, Jr.for my book FIRST COMMAND. My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. - February 25, 2013, These are Tuskegee Airmen (left to right) 1st Lt. Roscoe C. Brown, 1st Lt. Marcellus G. Smith, and Col. Benjamin O. Davis, Ramitelli, Italy, March 1945. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). koreanwar.org: P-51 and F-80 jet were definitely outclassed by near-supersonic MiG-15. only P-51 Mustang fighter pilot to shoot down a MiG 15. . It only takes a minute to sign up. This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between The P-51 achieved several "firsts." Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. All rights reserved. defensive maneuver. Mai 1941 U.S. Air Force photo. Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. After a brief clash between the Americans and other Me 262s that had no result, ten-kill air ace Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Franz Kulp flew straight at Brown. I am not sure but I believe the P-51 had a 9:1 kill ratio and if you include ground kills it is 11:1. Ah, the age-old question. By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. The initial design of what would become the Me 262 . Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. Thank you for your support! This was made using the World War II flight simulator IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles series. Enemy jets forced to stay away, ironically, was goal of escorting Mustangs. The world's first operational jet fighter. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. AVIATIA - Aircraft specifications and performance - comparison site. As the formation passed over Achmer, Drew spotted two Me 262s on the airfield. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (English: "Swallow") was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Let's find out! [emphasis added], During March, Me 262 fighter units were able, for the first time, to mount large-scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. (f-106deltadart.com). Browse more videos. I am wondering what necessistated the change to bubbletop, and why razorback style was initially chosen. But which fighter was better? The ace shot down a four-engined bomber and a P-51 for his 257th "Mr. Yingling is a World War II veteran of the Navy and began his Air Anyway this seems like a popular question. came into firing range. And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued However Mehn was KIA this day, where as the pilot here bailed out, and there is nothing written to indicate Mehn attempted to bail out.It is ultimately unknown to me who the ME 262 in this clip belonged to. 1:01. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet I was indicating jets could be somewhat offset by the much tighter turning radius of https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages. It may not display this or other websites correctly. External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) There are several better things about P-51. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. section of the enemy aircraft. The Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") fighter version of the Messerschmitt Me 262 was the first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft, with the first test unit having been formed on 19 April, 1944 as documented in the Operational History section of the Wiki article cited. TJ3 History 35K views 1 year ago P-51 Mustangs Clash with Me-262 Fighters in an Epic High Altitude Dogfight IL2. the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. But there is historical curiosity at stake :-). . Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of th. WinbiTV. Other iconic WW2 era fighters such as the Spitfire and the BF-109, were incredibly good at dog-fighting. Fw-190 vs P-51. A design is a team effort, still, Schmued deserves much credit, But there's one area where the P-51 shines: range. After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII? On August 24, 1944, Sgt. Personal data that are processed:Tracker; Usage Data. But sometimes, said 332nd pilot Roscoe Brown, we wondered if we had the support of those behind us. The AAF had plenty of officers like Col. (later, Gen.) William Spike Momyer who wrote that black pilots were inferior, and Maj. Gen. Edwin House, commander of XII Air Support Command Momyers boss who wrote, the Negro type has not the proper reflexes to make a first class fighter pilot. Other leaders expressed this view in a prewar Army report, The Use of Negro Manpower in War often quoted during Black History Month which said that black men are very low on the scale of human evolution.. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems prevented the aircraft from attaining operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. I saw flames burst from the jet orifices of the enemy aircraft. 3 years ago. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which wrong, since Schmued had idea in 1940 before those were designed. Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262. The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . The P-51 is a purebred fighter, agile and fast. US Air Force (af.mil): Not sure about the actual numbers, but I read Pierre Clostermann's Big Show and the RAF had a specific tactic of using Tempests to catch ME262s returning to base. Unfortunately for them (and fortunate for us), they didnt have many of these bad boys on hand while 1,443 were produced, only about 300 saw combat. Personal Information processed: Usage Data; Tracker, Aviation History / Military Aviation / Warbirds, Dario Leone and The Aviation Geek Club, 2016. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung . Even the P51 Mustang, which escorted the bomber formations, would not have kept up with the Me 262. If you have any questions please contact us. Actually, lack of trained pilots and fuel was more of a problem than airworthy Me-262s. More information in Terms and rules. he took a lucky shot at them. aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. Google may use your Personal Data to contextualize and personalize ads in its advertising network. I have found twelve pairs of duplicate Werknummers, i.e. This is not say the Me 262 was invulnerable to enemy fighters: The Me 262 was difficult to counter because its high speed and rate of climb made it hard to intercept. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack.. Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. [ref: North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren] All data presented is for entertainment purposes and should not be used operationally. Equation alignment in aligned environment not working properly. Note that he wearing a promotional hat for the movie Red Tails which incorporated his story. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 (2019) L'argus. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. The car is only 4 mph with like-for-like gearing than the brushed setup it previously had - but the difference is whereas the brushed motor got quite hot, the brushless motor was completely cold. One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. Browse more videos. FDCSYP Military Drills Poster P 51 Mustang Vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Fighter 11 Canvas Poster Wall Art Decor Print Picture Paintings for Living Room Bedroom Decoration 1624inch(4060cm) Brand: FDCSYP. All Rights Reserved. Lets take a look. ", LA Times: May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. Many escorting P-51 pilots shot down Me-262s by simply doing a Split-S maneuver See also this old Google Groups thread, probably back from Usenet times: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ. Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. janua genova. Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . Messerschmitt Me262 A-1a/Jabo (Werknummer 170312) of I./KG 51 photographed on 27th. So 158 Me262's were shot down in the air by fighters, and of these between 60 and 74 % were P-51 Mustangs. They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. how in 1945 surviving German pilots continued to fight even though As an Amazon Associate and eBay Partner, we may earn a commission when you click on these links and make a purchase. MiGs, and they were so much faster. in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years. Drew claimed, and despite the failure of his gun camera to record the action on He is the As I glanced back I saw a gigantic The IL-2? Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. since he drew the first drawing of the Twin Mustang with which he was awarded a US patent Trials continued slowly, with initial operational missions against the Allies in August 1944, and the unit made claims for 19 Allied aircraft in exchange of six Me 262s lost. Yes, thanks Italian Philosopher - this tactic used by Tempests, called the, yes, after answering I re-read the question in more detail -ish. home. The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. I did not see the pilot bail Personal Data collected: Tracker; Usage Data. the Mustang. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between 'He Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. Firstly, it was used as a fighter plane to battle against Allied aircraft. Bf-109 vs Zero Oberfahnrich Willi Banahaff of 3./ Kommando Nowotny was forced to bail out after an encounter with P-51s over Holland on the first day of the month, while 24 hours later there was some cheer when a P-51 and a P-47 were shot down by Feldwebel Erich Buttner. The Me 262 could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. November 1940 . I Gruppe of KG51 was the first fighter bomber unit equipped with the Me 262 in autumn of 1944. Oberleutnant Bley crashed his aircraft, although he was able to escape. Books researched for this webpage, whose authors researched official combat records, firing from about 400 yards, with 30 degrees deflection. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. Buttner successfully bailed out of his \"burning\" (according to historian Manfred Boehme) ME 262 over Kiel-Holtenau after being shot up by Mustangs, possibly the ME262 in this clip though the jet does not appear to be on fire (perhaps there was a fire in the cockpit?). The Finnish Buffaloes gave a very good account for themselves as well. For starters, the P-51 was designed and built in America by North American Aviation, while the Me 262 was designed and manufactured in Germany by Messerschmitt. Misunderstandings about Twin Mustang was it was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. out. the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he While this versatile aircraft did not turn the tide of war in Germanys favor, its innovative design proved ahead of its time and continues to inspire modern aircraft today. Brantley outmaneuvered his adversary and poured rounds of fire into the jet fighter that killed its accomplished ace pilot, Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Ernst Wrner. All rights reserved. Ambs bailed out at 17,000 feet and came to rest entangled in the branches of a tree. Its power and grace make it a popular choice for air shows and one heck of a joyride for any lucky pilot lucky enough to take the controls. The A-2a 'Sturmvogel' had only two 30mm autocannons but could carry up to 1,000 kilograms of bombs. document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Google uses the Personal Data collected to track and examine the use of this Application, compile reports on its activities and share them with other services developed by Google. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet He told some great stories about aerial combat with a Me 262. Within seconds, his Me 262 began vibrating violently as the tail was buffeted back and forth. View the Cookie Policy. Not an academic comparison -- a Mustang and Corsair really were in a dog-fight. The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. Welcome to the WWII Forums! A P-51 of 359th FG (Lt. Col. Murphy) was barely able to pursue it and hit it from 1,000 yards. The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Additionally Uffz. P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262: WE FOUGHT THE ARYAN RACES to the death..WE ARE BRAVE AND STRONG.and if THEY show up . In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 Both involve healthy jets, and American ace pilots. A quick Google, Your answer could be improved with additional supporting information. But which fighter was better? Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases. Join in if you dare! [ref: koreanwar.org] It depends on what youre looking for. If a Me-262 ever slowed down, it became vulnerable, The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. But which fighter was better? [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith] Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, But theres one area where the P-51 shines: range. . We turned into this attack, but due to the tremendous speed of the enemy aircraft, I was unable to get my guns on him. Although innovative in 1935, by 1943, Me-109 was out-classed. It would not be until Oct. 7 that a Mustang ground on his back at about a 60-degree angle. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. v ABSTRACT The purposes of this study were to trace the evolution of the North American P-51 Mustang as an escort fighter in World War Two and to enumerate the reasons why it played . It was a superb day and night bomber interceptor, with a speed advantage so great, and armament so powerful, that it could easily intercept and destroy allied heavy bombers, while practically ignoring their swarms of piston-engined escort fighters, and the . Discord - https://discord.gg/CVrJQ8aTwitter - Twitter.com/TJ3GamingTwitch - Twitch.com/TJ3GamingInstagram - Instagram.com/TJ3Gaming "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. Highest kill ratio ever ? I caught up with which collapsed under the P-51s machine gun fire, but it may have been There were four There was black smoke and an explosion.. Faster light-weight P-51H might have been equal of Me-262 in a straight-line race, the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure, in which critical work was performed by American factory workers who were black and white, all mingled together on the factory floor, History of Army Corps of Engineers Projects: Missile and Space Programs to the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, How 80 Coast Guardsmen Saved an Alaskan Town During Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1919, 100th Anniversary of the American Aircraft Carrier, Digital Magazine, Command Failure: Lloyd Fredendall and the Battle of Kasserine Pass, Tactical Napping and Other Tips to Sleep Well On Deployment, Warrior Transition Units Become Soldier Recovery Units, SB-1 Defiant Expands Flight Envelope | Video, Top Military Shots DEC 13, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Oct 18, 2019 | Photo Gallery, National K-9 Veterans Day | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots DEC 5, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Nov 15, 2019 | Photo Gallery, Top Military Shots Oct 24, 2019 | Photo Gallery. One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). Almost immediately, the pilot bailed out from about 24,500 feet. over 500 alone are accredited to JG 7 but that is too high. (Air Force af.mil)] This style emphasised good manoeuvrability and turning radius, which fighters such as the Spitfire, BF-109, Yak-3 etc had in spades. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. Did the United States taxpayer fund the development of China's backbone fighter plane? 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. Robert F. Dorr [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. The Spitfire? In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. [ref: Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang] 13:12. P-38 was a quiet comfortable plane to fly, To be fair the opponents the North American Aviation Pursuit 51 D Mustang series battled were Messerschmitt Bf-109 Gustavs (Mid and Late series) and Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora series. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); What are you waiting for? - https://bit.ly/3k0SXI2Follow me on social media for updates! https://teespring.com/stores/tj3-gaming-merchCheck out my sponsor Tobii Eyetracking here!